Crying in My Jacuzzi with Dana Balicki

Osiris Dick in a Box: Mature Rebellion in These Times™ with astrologer Diana Rose

• dana balicki • Season 3 • Episode 1

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Welcome back, crybabies! Season 3 is here and we're kicking it off with the brilliant relational astrologer, tarot reader, writer, and educator, Diana Rose (currently residing and thriving on the planet Venus). 

In episode 1, we explore rebellion as an act of maturing aka radical adulting aka self-trusting in an era of systemic oppression, rising fascism, and huge planetary shifts. Just a few tidbits from our entirely un-casual and truly delightful convo about humaning...

• Clinging to control versus cultivating presence and trust in ourselves and life
• How the rejection of death drives control-seeking behavior and fascist tendencies
• Becoming a "grown-up" rebel through developing self-trust and accepting reality
• The myth of Isis and Osiris as a metaphor for destruction, reassembly, and transformation
• The importance of developing nervous system resilience to navigate intense times
• How healing increases our ability to be in relation with ourselves and others
• Why evacuating the need to be superior/hierarchy is one of the most rebellious acts possible
• The distinction between rebellion as disruption versus revolution as total transformation

~ resources ~


/// sound-editing/design ~ rose blakelock, theme song ~ kat ottosen, podcast art ~ natalee miller///


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Speaker 1:

Dearest crybabies, welcome back to Crying in my Jacuzzi. The ebbs and flows of living an examined life where we live, laugh, love in the Anthropocene. I'm Dana Balicki, transformational coach of 13 years, former grassroots organizer, reverently, irreverent, deep feeler, woo, woowoo, sherpa, your internet big sis that you always wanted and slow-down medicine guide in exploring the weird magic of humaning together. The Jacuzzi Verse is where we dive into the messy, beautiful, ridiculous and profound journey of self-exploration and collective evolution.

Speaker 2:

Because life is a lot, and sometimes the only thing left to do is to sink into the warm, bubbly depths of it all and let it flow, crying in my jacuzzi. Crying in my jacuzzi crying in my jacuzzi.

Speaker 1:

Crying in my jacuzzi. I am almost always thinking about systems and dismantling systems. I've been known to use the word remantling. It's not a word, but if I say it is, then it is. Then why not? People make things up all the time.

Speaker 1:

A friend of mine said thinking about systems and internalized systems is my Roman empire. She is not wrong. It's what I used to do as an activist, it's what I do now as a coach. Even my far more seemingly esoteric work working with the Akasha and the Akashic Records in a more divinatory, oracular, psychic, intuitive way with folks, that's still contending with old systems and touching other sources of our intelligence and knowing the imaginal realm in order to explore our broader capacities as humans. Because the limitations of the systems we do live inside of are felt. All of us feel it.

Speaker 1:

It the constant contraction of systemically oppressive systems where expansion is almost impossible, and we have learned to trade those desires for much smaller crumbs like comfort and busyness and remembering, and we forget presence and how to stay and how to grow, how to be with each other. And you know, contraction isn't all bad and expansion isn't all good. Contraction limitation, very Saturnian, expansion, growth, very Jupiterian. Oh man Don't know that word, but you know who would be perfect, perfect accompaniment for this, for this conversation I'm currently having with myself and you, but who could bring some more depth play, storytelling, zingers, deep thoughts, tm. And surely knows the correct word to describe something with the essence of the planet Jupiter, the true being of delight, diana Rose. She's a relational astrologer, tarot reader, writer, educator. If you don't already know Diana, let me just say you're're welcome right up front. So last time I saw Diana she was on Venus, thriving amidst the noxious gases. I think there's, let's see. I don't think the distance here between the Jacuzzi-verse and Venus is very far between the Jacuzzi-verse and Venus is very far.

Speaker 3:

There's a little portally worm. Hurry something around here.

Speaker 1:

Whoa Ooh, it is dense out here. The air is thick. Ooh, I see her right up there and welcome to growing in my jacuzzi. Welcome to the jacuzzi verse. I mean, we're also just maybe always in the jacuzzi verse because you're still where you are and I'm still here, and maybe it's really just a liminal space of how we are together.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I really like the idea where it's just like God is everywhere. God is everything, and so is the jacuzzi. Yeah. Like at any moment you could enter into the version of non-normative consciousness that is, jacuzzi consciousness.

Speaker 1:

It feels, like one of the most beautiful things anyone has ever said about the crazy bird, thank you. That was maybe the most beautiful, perfect intro because, like, yes, splash around, play here together, but like where we are on this collective timeline and the stories that we are taking in and processing maybe are we even processing them, I'm not even sure Kind of Sort of.

Speaker 3:

I think a lot of. It is kind of like when you eat corn on the cob too fast and you don't fully chew it, and so you've intaken it but you're not going to digest it.

Speaker 1:

It's going to end up in the toilet, yeah right there, little chunks being like, ooh, all right, that's what I had Exactly. Being like, oh, all right, that's what I had exactly. And so then it's just like going back out and then, and then we keep doing the same thing and we keep maybe getting like little bits right and we're taking in little bits, but we're not really. Our bodies, our little meat bags are doing the best that they can. Yes, you know, speaking of the non-normative jacuzzi verse, this feels like, and has for a long time felt like a time for like great imagination, because we're being told in so many ways and because of the, the filtering and the like processing and attempted processing, the overwhelm. We're being told how to be. We're being told like how we are going to live together right, living under these like rules and norms and in this time of like great imaginations, like we have to come up with new stories or we can turn to the old stories.

Speaker 1:

And which is part of why I wanted to talk to you, because you're a great storyteller and I feel like story keeper and share and an interpreter and reinterpreter, and the way that you like sort of bend stories and bend time and I feel like always looping the ancient and the future and the present together.

Speaker 1:

I'm wondering, like when I told you I was sending you some notes and then it I don't know if you saw that message and I some notes, and then it I don't know if you saw that message and I was like and then it turned into a grand essay and I was like let's have the conversation, but I wanted to know, like the stories. We can talk about a million things, but it's like are there stories right now that feel really like on your heart? As we're in this new time of you know, I introduced like the idea of rebellion in the conversation, in our emails, to move out of this normativity that we have been told is all there is and into this non-normative, non-pathological, like new spaces of rebellion, of shift, of release, maybe of loss. I'm just curious what feels on your heart?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so there are. There are a few different stories that are that come to mind as you say this ah man, which one? I feel like I have like this menu in front of me and I'm like, oh, what one sounds tastiest. Yeah, I mean, all of like. This is the thing with stories, right? They're always going to be some level of relevant. I will say that, you know, in just direct response to some of what you were just saying, this is a time where it's extremely important to use our imaginations wisely and intentionally, instead of letting them get constantly hijacked, like no matter what, we are influenced and we are influencing.

Speaker 3:

And also, there are ways to be more intentional and agential with the manipulation of our imaginations, right? The first story that came to mind is the story of Isis, osiris and Seth from ancient Egypt, and in this story, isis, osiris and Seth are basically the first children that are born. And Isis and Osiris are like a perfect match, right? They fit each other perfectly, they're perfectly aligned, they become the original, like incestuous marriage. Dyad of ancient Egypt, and Seth is consumed with jealousy, consumed with envy, you know, has not even considered whether he might be able to find his own, equal. Elsewise, and instead of pursuing someone, creation of someone, the engagement with someone that would be his version of the Isis-Osiris pairing, he allows his envy to attempt to destroy the union right.

Speaker 3:

And so you know, in this we immediately get the whole like is union allowed in the world of incarnate form, and how long is union allowed for? And also the ache, the pain of separation. There's the separation that is. I let me finish the story and then we'll get into that. But in this story Seth, in his immense envy, concocts a plan to destroy the perfect Dyad and he sends his little minions. He creates little minions to work for him and they go and they measure Osiris exactly. They get every measurement of Osiris's body. So it's just a perfect understanding of what Osiris looks like, what Osiris's form is.

Speaker 3:

And then Seth throws a party and at the party he presents this creative work that he's made. And what it is is a box. It's a box for a BA and it's the most exquisite metalwork. It's gilded with gold and it has all of these absolutely incredible stones inlaid into it. It's just the most incredibly luxurious box you've ever laid eyes on. And Seth is like whoever fits in this box, you can have it. And so all of the attendees at this party. It's like Cinderella in her shoe right. All of the attendees at this party try to fit themselves in the box and nobody fits. And then Seth is like Osiris why haven't you tried the box? And Osiris gets into the box, it fits him perfectly. And while Os is like Osiris why haven't you tried the box? And Osiris gets into the box, it fits him perfectly. And while Osiris is in the box, seth rushes over and slams the lid down. And when he slams the lid down, the mechanics of the box activate and Osiris is shred into pieces.

Speaker 3:

And then Seth distributes the pieces of Osiris over the land of Egypt and his perfect dyad, his perfect partner, isis, is utterly devastated. She goes on a mission to collect all of the pieces of Osiris, assembles Osiris back together. In some versions of the story she can't find his reproductive member member, and so she cuts off her own thumb and puts it in that place. In some stories she does find it, but in any case, osiris is fully assembled and then she turns into the bird version of Isis. You see, you've seen those images of Isis with her wings, and she uses her wings to breathe life back into Osiris and then, in that process, she's straddling him. As this happens, she becomes pregnant and Horus is the child that emerges from this union. Yes, right, so there is a reassembly, but Osiris is never the same after this Osiris is OG Frankenstein'sstein's monster.

Speaker 1:

You could say yeah, so I was getting very strong dick in a box vibes from that story also literally straight up dick in a box.

Speaker 3:

Vibes right modern mythology yeah but also, you know, just like the importance of fertilizing, fecundity, right? Yes, you know, horus becomes a god of the sun. His shape, his animal shape, is the falcon. He sees from very far places and then plummets down and attacks what needs attacking, like hunts, what needs hunting. Right, we could get into Horus stuff too, yeah, you know. But there's this, the, the destruction, and it's a destruction that's rooted in envy. The destruction of union, perfect union is disallowed from perfect continuance.

Speaker 3:

The ache of reassembling the beloved well, the ache of loss the ache of loss, the ache of loss, and then that yearning, the seeking of the parts, putting the parts back together, but also knowing there is no back together, it's a new together, right. And so, even as I'm saying the story, I'm thinking about how you know, in these times, tm sprinkle, sprinkle, like you know, little sparkles there, right in these times, tm sprinkle, sprinkle, like you know, little sparkles there, right, in these times, like there's an awareness that how humans in the quote-unquote West are living is very, very, very alien to the deep history of how humans have lived. Yeah, it's very alien how we relate with the land that we're on and the trees that are near us, and like there's this gorgeous rhododendron bush in front of my office window and it's like I can't wait for her to bloom. And also like she's a new friend, like you know. I don't know if she likes me yet. I think she does, but you know we'll see, right.

Speaker 3:

But anyway the relations that we have in place are so different. Yeah, and humans, as far as you know, the deep traditions that we have access to, like the continued traditions, like even thinking about, like the Bhakti traditions that come out of India, or the devotional intensities and the devotional mystics from, like you know, monaster, know that there is this yearning to be connected, this yearning for the more than human, not just the other than human, but the more than human, and that that connection reassembles us in important ways. And also, we can't go back Right, there is no return or retvern, you know, like the R-E-T-V-R-N, right, like the return is not, is not a full option, but a reassembly is possible. Yeah, but the reassembly is always with the acknowledgement that there is someone or something, an energetic of destruction. Sometimes the destruction is necessary, like we don't have life without death, right, and also sometimes the destruction is petty, little bitches.

Speaker 1:

I started to talk here about experiencing self versus the remembering self and the audio got a little crispy from all that Venusian storming. So I want to say it again and maybe add a little extra. So we don't just experience our life, we remember it. Psychologist Daniel Kahneman calls it our experiencing self and our remembering self and points out that they don't always agree with each other. There's tension. The experiencing self lives in the moment, feels things as they happen. It's the present self in a nutshell. But the remembering self is the storyteller, it decides what sticks, it shapes how we think about the past, unless it influences our future choices, which maybe can sound a little benign.

Speaker 1:

But there's a catch, because we don't remember everything equally. We tend to focus on peak moments, the most intense parts and how things end, while sort of hazing the most intense parts and how things end, while sort of hazing, shelving, fuzzing the duration of the experience. So this has a huge political implications. The hellscape of nostalgia, driven maga messaging that taps into people's selective memory and idealizes a past that ignores systemic struggles, inequalities, all the things people don't want to remember, don't want to confront. This makes them uncomfortable. Right to comfort is a tenet of white supremacy. We remember that the remembering self forgets a lot and we focus on being fully present and actively engaged with our senses, not fucking around with multitasking which isn't even real, where we're putting our precious attention, how we're feeling, how we're moving through the world, and not just ping-ponging in past and future. Because when we cultivate the practice of staying in the discomfort, in the moment, in all of it, we are way harder to manipulate this is.

Speaker 3:

This is the beauty of the human brain right of being able to imagine and conceptualize. It's the beauty and it's the terror, it's the blessing and it's the curse. The ability to re-perceive the past, but also every re-perception of the past, is we're getting a little bit further away from what actually happened, and that can be great and that can be terrible. The possibility of retconning the past actually happened, and that can be great and that can be terrible, right, like the possibility of retconning the past in ways that are generative and useful and positive. And then there are ways of doing it that are just like damaging and terrible, that excuse inexcusable behavior and all of this kind of stuff. But there's also the how do I put this? So one of the things that helps with memory is to be fully present and to understand that you are wanting to remember this exactly how it is right. So like.

Speaker 3:

I have this memory with an ex-boyfriend we were hiking in one of the cook county forest preserve areas around chicago and the light was beautiful. It was like november or something. The light was really nice. Beautiful. It was like November or something. The light was really nice. The woods were all like all. The trees were naked, the sky was very blue, the wind was like that perfect temperature of wind, and the way that the light through the naked trees was hitting his hair as I was walking behind him was just amazing. And I had this moment of being like. I really want to remember this. This is aesthetically perfect.

Speaker 3:

If I was an animator, I would aspire to creating an animated scene. That is this, and because I was hyper present in that moment, I have that memory clear as day in my brain. Yeah, I don't even talk to that person anymore. Yeah, right, but it's that intensity of presence and it's not, it's not a nostalgia as in wow, everything was perfect. Then. It's like that was a moment that was really amazing and there's something about wonder that takes us out of our interpretations of experience. That makes for, I think, truer memories. But so much of memory is about interpreting our experience, not about, like Reeve's, touching presence.

Speaker 1:

Right, exactly In my work as a coach, that's a big part of what we're doing is cultivating presence, practicing presence and noticing, you know, that, that same dynamic of oh how, how much are we in the past and in the future I think it was like Thich Nhat Hanh that called it called regret too much past, anxiety, too much future.

Speaker 1:

And so what is it to be here in the present and what can we see here and what can we do here? And to know that to be present is, I think it's like Rebecca Sona, like from one of my favorite books, a field guide to getting lost, talks about like being fully present is to be capable of being in uncertainty and mystery, that sort of inherent risk or discomfort in in presence. And that if we were to be fully present and I say that knowing that it's like a spectrum and not a fixed point, but that like we would have to risk that discomfort, we would have to risk that, that like the loss or the possibility of getting lost, of being lost, but what's interesting is when you're really present.

Speaker 3:

I was just talking with somebody, like one of my mentees, about this recently. Yeah, like whenever. So like I'm an astrologer as like that's my quote, unquote day job, right, like that's what I do in terms of like the modality that I primarily use, but I wouldn't necessarily say that astrology, specifically, is my vocation. It's the way that I do my vocation, right. But you know astrology like.

Speaker 3:

One of its use cases is to be, able to see what the upcoming celestial weather is and what's favorable or unfavorable to do in those time periods and when you are engaging with the future through that anxiety and control lens.

Speaker 3:

Then there's also this desire to make sure you're capitalizing on whatever is coming energetically, as described by astrology, and like doing the right things. And if you do the right things then maybe you won't get in trouble, and if you don't get in trouble you won't die. Whoa, whoa, whoa. How did we get get there?

Speaker 3:

But there's also something to uh feeling from like the to be in a hyper present moment and from that presence to like kind of wiggle your fingers out into the future. You're actually much more able to assess what to do, when, and then you can layer on the astrology to be like okay, so thematically, this might be some of what I'm dealing with. Or it would be good to make sure I have rain boots for jupiter and cancer or something like that. Right, because the present moment, while there is a lot of uncertainty, there's also a massive amount of possibility, and and when you're fully present, you are actually better able to feel into the possibilities and potentialities in their spectrum, and not just from the perspective of I'm anxious and want to control things Right. It's more like I'm curious and I want to see what I could do.

Speaker 1:

Oh, hi, it's me Janet, this is an ad. So recently I was at my doctor's and he had me do a stool test, not in front of him back at my house, but he gave me one of those little kits that has a french fry tray and you poop in it and then you scoop a little out, put it in a jar and you send it off in the mail to a magical lab. It did get lost in the mail, called an orphan stool sample, but they found it and then they ran it through the little poop machine and then the lab sent it to my doctor and he called me up and was like oh my God, Dana, your gut flora looks amazing. I said, really, thank you so much, I work on it. And he said what do you do? I bet that you eat a lot of fruits and veggies. And I thought in that moment you know well, I do and I don't, because what I had actually been doing for months at that point is eating salad power little sucky packets I mean that's what I call them. It's like a grown-up smoothie pouch. It has two times your USD daily vegetable requirement. There's no prep, there's no cleanup, it's not a ton of plastic or anything like that. I think they're really tasty. No added sweeteners, it's just spinach and kale and carrots and broccoli, a little apple and lemon. Sometimes I eat them as a meal, sometimes as a snack. Sometimes I spread one between two days because it is two days worth of veggies. Right, maybe you're right, so you can go to the link in the show notes if you want to try it out. You can save 15% if you set up for a subscription. And literally my gut flora, my beautiful, healthy, gorgeous, glowing gut flora, can attest to the delightfulness of salad power. So go get sucking.

Speaker 1:

You're talking about embracing that possibility.

Speaker 1:

It's like that flexibility. I had an old doula friend who would talk about working with her clients and how some would really cling to, like okay, here's my birth plan, here's what it's going to be, here's how we're going to do it Right, and she would be like well, that's great, I'm glad that you have that, that's beautiful, that you have that, that's beautiful. And the most, maybe the most important thing is for you to cultivate some sense of like, flexibility, of possibility, that many things could happen right, and it may look just like your plan like, and it might look a million different ways, and so don't cling to the plan. The clinging to that very specific this is how we are going to control this totally uncontrollable thing which I always was like, yeah, whether you're talking about birth or just living right, like we can't control, and it's almost. Like you know, I introduced this idea of wanting to do the theme of this season, giving it the theme of rebellion, but be invited to practice, and maybe have been invited to practice for some time now.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, right, and I think one of those tools is trust.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yes, yes, yes because so much of attempting to control how things unfurl, trying to control outcomes, is mistrust in your ability to deal with things other than what you have planned. It's also mistrust of other people, it's mistrust of life right, and this is where it gets really, you know, interesting, where I think one of the most rebellious things that we can do in these times and in this culture that is so deeply death phobic, yes, which is to fully embrace not just the reality but the necessity of death, literally and metaphorically speaking, because so much of the attempts to control are attempts to not die. Yes, and like this is even something that we see in really intense evangelical christianity, where the focus is eternal life, that is to say, literally being a cancer, and we see this in the entire tech bro that one, that one, that one guy who's like spending like two million dollars a year on eternal youth or whatever.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, and getting 500 injections into like his testicles every day, I'm like wow, I don't even understand. I mean that might have been why, like if that's gonna be your whole life like.

Speaker 1:

That's a terrible quality of life yeah, I mean, these are like the folks who are like we're gonna go live in space. I'm like, well, great, have fun getting like the poop sucked out of you, like every like. That's like it's a real grim experience, right. But it's like this weird idea of like somehow like well, we're going to beat the thing.

Speaker 1:

And I don't know if you listened to the episode from my last season, death Boop with a side of death cult. No, but I'm going to. Yes, please do. Yes, yeah, I talk about terror management theory and I talk about Sheldon Solomon's work and existential experimental psychology.

Speaker 1:

But all of this about and I just reached out to Sheldon Solomon, he's going to be a guest, but you know, his work was all about this is all about understanding and it's based on Ernest Becker, who was an anthropologist's work that was looking at the Western civilization relationship, civilization-wide relationship, death and life and exactly what you're saying, that like in our anxiety, our death anxiety, where we turn and one of the things that we turn to besides our relationships and like sort of the relationships that are inside of our cultural worldview, and we double down, and there's this entire wing of psychology looking at how death awareness affects us and the ways in which we respond on a psychological, unconscious, psychological level, and that doubling down and I read this initial article and I talk about this in the episode, but, like at the beginning of the first year of COVID, and it gave me so much perspective for everything that followed after, because I was like, oh, here we are doubling down on our cultural worldview and like, depending on what you're, what the pool, the pond you're swimming in, right, we've got pluriversality, many worlds within this one world that is going to shape what you understand as as like what your values are.

Speaker 1:

And then, when you're confronted with these subtle death reminders or just like death awareness, right, and this I'm really excited to talk to Sheldon now at like, rise of fascism that has been rising for quite some time.

Speaker 3:

Yes, it's, it's, it's a fully out of the ground. Now, though, it's not just a seed under the soil.

Speaker 1:

Totally, and then witnessing a genocide live streamed, that level of coming out of COVID, right, that level of death awareness and then understanding, like looking out in the world and being with anyone who's like, how did this happen? I'm like, bless your heart that like this is only just now catching you. But this is, you know, what you said about that, that rejection of death, right it's. It's that self cling to like what what Sheldon and his colleagues and many folks now in this death awareness work call like self-esteem, and it's a little bit, you know, different than how we might use it in more, like you know, sort of modern meaning of self-esteem, but it is how we see ourselves as people of value in a world of meaning and so that like connection there and that clinging again right and there's very little curiosity.

Speaker 1:

I think inside of that there can't be, there can't be curiosity. I don't even think there can really be a ton of presence.

Speaker 3:

No, it's a negation of reality Exactly, and when you're negating reality, you can't ask questions about it.

Speaker 2:

Pathetic earthlings.

Speaker 3:

Hurling your bodies out into the void and you can't be present with it because it's not allowed to exist.

Speaker 1:

Even what you said about trust, which, like self-trust, when people come to do work with me and it's like, oh, I want to be, I want to feel more like um, confident, more assured, more empowered, more whatever, you know, it's like always comes down to self-trust.

Speaker 3:

Do you trust yourself to deal with the consequences of your actions, positive or negative, or neutral?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and most people don't. And so that's what we build, because it is learnable, it is buildable, it is a practice, it's practicable and so this actually brings me to another thing that I think is profoundly rebellious.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, becoming a grown up what, what, what, what, what, what? Yes, becoming an actual, an actual adult. So not like not teenage reactivity, but the adults like. I'm in a solid relationship with myself, I know what my needs are, I know what my limits are, I know what my preferences are, and I am making choices that are in honor of those things on all of the levels that are relevant, as many of the levels that are relevant as possible, and that's inclusive of accepting the external limits that exist, such as nobody gets out of life alive.

Speaker 3:

There. There isn't a winning. Where you don't die Like, winning is dying well and leaving behind like positive influence in your wake. That's the winning, yeah Right. And like positive influence in your wake. That's the winning, yeah Right. And like, which means living well, right.

Speaker 1:

And you don't live well If you are living from a child mentality when you are an adult no, no it's impossible, right, and I I think this maturity, part of what was was sort of simmering this theme for me for a while was working with one client. I mean as an activist, I always think about rebellion, but like the idea of the mature rebel, right, the maturity. And another beautiful human I'm going to interview this season is Julia Fradal, and she's a teacher of mine and I've been working with her for over 10 years and so much of that work was like my own inner rebel and how to really be in relationship with that part of myself in a way that she could grow, she could mature, she could evolve, she could just become. And that's been. When I look at social justice movements now and everything, you know that that used to be. There was no like pick up your phone and see it you know what I?

Speaker 1:

mean like it wasn't that accessible. And and looking at it now and being able to see, like in call-out culture and in different ways in which I'm like, oh, I understand where that's coming from. It's not from a mature place. And I don't mean like, oh, you're being so immature, it's just like, oh right, there's a lot of pain there, there's a lot of hurt parts raising their hand asking for attention. And for me, when you say, like becoming an adult, it's like being able to turn to those parts all along the way, even you know, maybe're graceful, maybe we're just messy as fuck, both and everything in between, but to be able to turn to those parts in ourselves and then I think, like in in community and be able to like be adults with each other.

Speaker 1:

That's some of the work I did with my partner a couple of years ago and I was like, oh, I think we might be getting a divorce. We've been together for almost 20 years. And I was like, oh shit, things are not going well and it was because we weren't meeting each other as adults. Right, we were really in this like child, parent dynamic and kind of doing that work to meet each other there, right, and I hear that in your story, that that competition, that jealousy, that envy that like I'm gonna, you know, like I'm going to get you, instead of like Seth, going off and being like wait, what's what's my match, look like what's important to me, what, what do I want in the world? Right, what were you saying? Like the dying well, the living well, like that this, that story I'm so glad that you told that one Cause I know you've got like catalog.

Speaker 1:

They all would have been right, but that that like I'm going to, I'm going to get you right. Like wait.

Speaker 3:

Which actually doesn't give you what you want. This is the thing. This is one of the things I think about. Like being an adult and being mature is to like listen to the parts that are in distress, yeah, and not stop at the surface level distress Drop off here.

Speaker 2:

Here's a bottomless pit, baby Two and a half miles straight down.

Speaker 3:

Sometimes a toddler is melting down because they're hungry, sometimes it's because they're tired, sometimes it's because their shoe fits weird, right, like. But if you're just trying to be like shut up kid, you're never actually meeting the underlying need, which means that the satisfaction that is being sought isn't fulfilled. It's not fulfillment to destroy, right, it's like to just destroy understanding that every new thing made, every, every born thing, is killing something. It's killing the world that existed before the born thing was born, at minimum, right, but you know to be able to interact with each other in ways like to interact with ourselves and then to interact with others. Of just like, hey, it seems like you're really hurting right now. Of just like, hey, it seems like you're really hurting right now Even just using the principle of halt from conflict navigation.

Speaker 3:

Are you hungry? Are you angry? Are you lonely? Are you tired? Do you need a hug? Do you need a nap? Do you need a snack? Do you need to punch a pillow?

Speaker 3:

What do you need in order to get the loud part met and heard, not to stifle it, but so that it can be calm enough that we can interact with the deeper needs that need to be addressed and that need to be honored, right, like that to me, like so much I think of, like there's, there's all of this stuff of how you need to work on yourself, and like your self-work is the most important. And it's like that's true if you're not only navel gazing and excusing your behavior. It's true if it's actually facilitating your maturation process and being able to engage, as an adult, with the world, because when you're an adult, you have more agency and influence over the world. You're not saying fuck you dad. You're saying, oh, I see, that's what you're doing.

Speaker 3:

I don't want to do that. I'm going to do this instead, even if that this is radically different from what is expected of you societally, like governmentally, like whatever. If you don't have self-trust, if you don't have self-relationship, to say what I truly want is worthy and I know that this is what I truly want because I've gone through the ringer of assessing and I'm willing to be proven wrong. If I get what I want and it's not what I want, that's fine. I will move on to the next thing I want.

Speaker 1:

Yes, cause I trust I can only make, continue to make the right decision for myself. The idea that we make decisions as adults right, I was an activist and then I was like Whoa, this outer work is great, but look at us all as individuals, really struggling and not knowing ourselves Like. I think if we know what change feels like in our own body, we might be better at making change out in the world. Right.

Speaker 3:

That's actually how you change worldview. You don't change worldview through ideology.

Speaker 1:

You change worldview through the body yes, yeah, and that that like right there was what guided me in, in my direction, and it's like all of the inner work that I do with folks. Yes, it's the self-reflection which, like we're in our hermit year, there's, you know, certainly a fair amount of astrology pointing us always in that like sort of self reflection work and so important for us to not just do the navel gazey stuff and like anyone with self-awareness, without tools or action, is just going to be like that guy Right, and then anyone with just like a ton of tools, you know, but with no self-awareness, is going to be that. So we need, we need both and it's like it's practice Right and I think there's something about like a softness or a forgiveness or and I think that's where trust comes in big time and her permission to be human. Yes, yes, yes, exactly that right, that softness of like, that forgiveness, that like. But it's a practice right and we're going to get it.

Speaker 1:

You know, wrong a lot and I and when I say wrong I mean I don't actually believe we can get it wrong I believe that like, if we're attempting and we know how to repair with each other, right.

Speaker 1:

This is another thing that I think is a big part of becoming an adult. In this maturation is the repair right, and that's like where we get in, in in our work and in in self-reflective, self-awareness work. We get a lot, we have a lot of room and we're just little Petri dishes of experimentation with repair. We can learn to practice with ourselves and practice then in our relationships and that ability to be like okay, well, I, I made this decision and I put all my eggs in this basket and I went for it and either it was really great or it was all for cockta or somewhere in between. And that's okay, right, like that's the permission to be human and I feel like there's so much inside of our culture of pathologizing that keeps us and like, keeps us in this like right and wrong keeps us in the rush, keeps us in this like productivity hamster wheel and it's based on, you know, making right and wrong decisions for our lives. Yes, and I think that that keeps us from maturing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah also avoid mistakes is to avoid growth. What's that like to live?

Speaker 1:

deliciously. Yeah, you have to risk. Right, we have to risk and we have to risk with each other, and I see people doing it a lot, but I I see a lot of risking, but like risking with like righteousness. I see this a lot in social justice spaces, which are also I'm not saying I'm outside of those spaces or I reject those spaces, I'm in them but there's a righteousness like a commitment to being right, which is a central tenet of supremacy culture.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yes, right the necessity to be right and the punishability of being wrong is literally a foundation, like it is a core, spine Core tenet. Within supremacy cultures, and so this is part of why letting yourself be wrong, giving yourself the permission to be wrong and then meeting yourself with kindness when the consequences of your actions aren't what you wanted, yeah, and to also then engage with that quote, unquote mistake with curiosity so you can learn from it and make meaning from it, like that is active anti-supremacist behavior.

Speaker 3:

It is, and if you can't do it with yourself, it's going to be hard to do it sincerely with others. Right and like. This is one of these things. There are so many people who are like other people are allowed to make mistakes, but I'm not, and it's like are other people actually allowed to make mistakes, or are other people making mistakes, giving you permission to feel superior and so that's why it's okay? Yeah, like evacuating the need to be superior is one of the most rebellious things you can do. It's like who cares about who is better than other people, except supremacist culture?

Speaker 1:

yeah, I mean, I noticed it on the daily, like in my own practice, even in the most subtle ways, noticing that the hierarchy right and we've created an entire culture, obviously through social media, sort of gamifying this hierarchy.

Speaker 2:

Fire, fire, burn it down, Fire, fire to the ground.

Speaker 1:

And like feeling that compulsion Well, I should have my thing out there, there's this thing that I wanna make and I wanna put out in the world and like that person has just put something out and like I should have something out. I mean like I just notice it constantly and like what it takes me, crying on my couch some days very intensely, to be like I don't want to participate in that. That the thing you said like the most rebellious thing you can do, it's like sometimes being a rebel is just fucking crying about how much it hurts to not participate in the way that we've been designed and programmed and conditioned to participate. Because it does hurt. Yes, is there liberation in it? Sure, is it terrifying? It's scary, absolutely. Is it painful? Yes, ma'am, right. And to like be able to be with that pain and not run away from it all the way.

Speaker 1:

I try sometimes right, we all do to like turn back around towards it and recognize it for what it is. Like I am choosing to not participate in this pathology, in this pathologizing, in this supremacy, in this rightness, in this wrongness, in this righteousness, and it doesn't immediately make me feel awesome. That is that maturity right To like recognize, like, oh right, I'm not getting a cookie at the end of all of this. Nope, the living well sometimes it's. It's not the same as, like you know, I think, what we get a lot of programming around of, like what living well looks like, right, it's not an aestheticized, like perfect little casita with like the most exquisite antique sinks and, like I don't know, a very handsome pool boy right Like.

Speaker 1:

I mean, all that sounds great but that's not necessarily the consequences.

Speaker 3:

It's like like living well. What does it mean to live Well? It's actually a really important question to ask and I'm having like 14 different ideas emerge, right. But, like, I want to bring astrology into this just a little bit, because one of the things that we're talking about here is the necessity of the quote unquote malefics, especially Saturn. Like Saturn is maturation, and true maturation is rarely a party experience, because it is this right sizing of reality.

Speaker 3:

It's like having to accept your limitations but also having to accept your power, which I think for a lot of people, it's actually much more scary to accept the genuine quantity and quality of power they have than it is to accept the ways in which they are constrained, because constraints give you something to fight against. They give you an identity rooted in negation, yeah, but power requires you to create identity of affirmation, that is to say, this is the hill I'm standing on, this is the sovereignty that I have ascertained to be relevant to myself, and how I'm going to apply that for my own and others benefit. Power comes with responsibility. It's like freedom without responsibility is merely license. I forget who said that, but I am not the originator of that phrase said that, but I am not the originator of that phrase.

Speaker 3:

It's like, yeah, so there's something about the maturation process, which also then requires actually having developed strength to be mature, right? So even just thinking about like titration, it's like, okay, you're experimenting with unsubscribing from a particular expression of hierarchical affirmation in the form of social media, and there's going to be a lot of intense discomfort and you can titrate that, right, like I love using the metaphors of working out for this kind of thing, because it's like if you have zero upper body strength because you've never done upper body work training, it doesn't mean that you can't ever have upper body strength. It does mean that you're going to have days, if you're actually developing upper body strength, where you feel like you're going to drop your coffee cup because your shoulders hurt yeah, but over time you become stronger, yeah, right, all of the like. So much of this is also Jupiter stuff the belief in the possibility of growth, the reality of growth, yeah, static, what is it? It's like growth culture versus the other one.

Speaker 3:

I forget what the other, the other one, was in this, in this dyad, but it's like. Growth culture says that change is always already happening and you can be an active participant in your change, whereas like static culture, whatever it is, is like things just are the way they are and there's nothing you can do. One of these is very useful for the continuity of oppression structures.

Speaker 1:

One of these is very right now and being told that, like, you know, this is, this is who exists and this is who does not exist. And we're being told by people who, like, clearly have very little understanding or interest in any of the roots of anything, that they're talking about Right, and so they're coming from whatever's going to work for them to like, help them feel more powerful, have the experience of power over Right, which is just like one aspect of the experience of power, and and then all of us are caught in it. The quote that's just going around do not obey in advance, timothy Snyder and seeing so many folks share that, so many folks share that and like, I'm curious about, like, as you're looking to sort of like our astrological moment here of putting into context this idea of rebellion being different than revolution. There's a beautiful quote from Grace Lee Boggs.

Speaker 1:

She says rebellion is a stage in the development of revolution. But it is not revolution. It's an important stage because it represents the standing up of the oppressed. Rebellions break the threads that have been holding the system together and thrown to question its legitimacy and the supposed permanence of existing institutions. A rebellion disrupts the society, but it doesn't provide what is necessary to make a revolution and establish an entire new social order. To make a revolution, people must not only struggle against existing institutions, they must make a philosophical, spiritual leap and become more human, human beings. In order to change, transform the world, they must change, transform themselves, and so be it. And so what would I take from that? A million things.

Speaker 1:

But like this idea of being a rebellion right Of of practicing rebellions, knowing that like they all add up and so, as we've been talking, and this idea of how we, you know, do not, obey in advance right, like how we are also stepping into our own maturity and what that actually means for how we participate in honoring, you know, as Grace Lee Boggs was saying, those like recognizing those old systems and knowing that they need to be transformed through our own spiritual growth and and that we are going to be kept in a lot of busyness, a lot of overwhelm right, I think they call it like flooding the space, so that we are just like in reactionary mode, there's no space to be present and with everything coming up and from your perspective and from the space that you're holding, like, where can we, how can we I mean, I know I feel like this has been our entire conversation leverage what's ahead of us planetarily and relationally to, to step into that, to step into that maturation, to step into, like, the power.

Speaker 1:

That is not just like power over, but power with. You know, that is not just participating in the hierarchy, but rebelling and disrupting it and dismantling it little by little.

Speaker 3:

Then, all of a sudden, so there's this 12-month period, inclusive of a little bit of last fall and then going into this year. We have a very unique situation of several outer planets, like the larger, slower-moving planets, moving into new signs and forming aspects with each other, which is rare. This is a very rare circumstance, and so it's like the sensation that a lot of people are having of like.

Speaker 3:

I don't know how to plan anything. It's like well, that's because we don't actually know what the territory will feel like in six months time. Right, and three of those planets Pluto moved into Aquarius. Neptune, alongside Saturn, is going to move into Aries and Uranus is going to move into Gemini. Pluto brings us into direct relationship with power structure and power applications and power assertions. Neptune brings us into relationship with the erosions of things and mirages and that sort of thing. Uranus brings us into relationship with the fuck Right Would be one way of putting it.

Speaker 3:

And those those, those three planets. Yeah, they're all going to be aspecting each other using aspects that are called flowing aspects or easy aspects, the sextiles and the trine. That is to say, there's a lot of lubrication between the energies of these planets, like plenty oh lube, plenty oh lube, right I love the way you astrologize.

Speaker 3:

Thank, you and these are planets that don't care about you. These are not planets that are like they are. They are neutral to humankind and oftentimes they are bringing in or associated with things that are actually quite overwhelming for an individual system to deal with, to navigate. And, alongside all of this, saturn's moving into Aries and Jupiter's moving into Cancer. Aries and Cancer are both signs that are initiation signs. They are the beginnings of seasons. They are like the technical word is, they are cardinal signs. Yeah, jupiter has a lot of power in Cancer.

Speaker 3:

According to traditional astrology, saturn feels really I don't really like this in Aries, right? So Jupiter is the planet of belief and possibility and foundations and fat bottom girls who make the rockin' world go round, and Saturn is the planet of are you going to grow the fuck up? So this configuration of these larger outer planetary cycles, if I try to distill this down to a single recommendation that I would feel comfortable provisioning to basically anyone and everyone, a single recommendation that I would feel comfortable provisioning to basically anyone and everyone, it's whatever the fuck you can do to get into a right relationship with your own nervous system, not a soporific relationship, right? Not a like we need to just dampen this, but anything and everything you can do to increase your capacity for experience, your capacity for emotion, your capacity for emotion, your capacity for possibility, your capacity for acknowledging your power. Do that Because the better relationship you have with your nervous system, the better relationship you have with being able to just like click in with yourself and to have an honest conversation with your body, the better able you are to navigate what is coming. Yeah, right, Like right now feels very uncertain. Because right now is very uncertain. There's a lot of shifting, shitty shifting.

Speaker 3:

Some of it is shitty, some of it is not shitty, it is not shitty. Chaos is the beginning of life. Right before the cosmos emerged, there was chaos and out of chaos this paradise we call earth emerged. So part of it, part of like clicking in, being with yourself, like being able to, like settle your nervous system enough, go touch.

Speaker 1:

Like literally go touch grass right, literally go fondle a plant, you know fondle a plant.

Speaker 3:

Go, put your back against a tree and ask that tree to take some of your extra energy. They will be very most of them will be very happy to do so, oh my gosh, connie, it's great to see you.

Speaker 1:

It's been a minute.

Speaker 2:

I just wanted to drop in here. I love Venus, isn't she intense? And I've been really enjoying you and I's conversation. I just love this part about leaning on rocks and connecting with elements in this way.

Speaker 2:

Most people don't know what a gag or little silly these rocks really are. They give the impression of being very stable, which is a great part of the personality, but they're all very goofy. Truly great partners for energetic accompaniment, for energetic support. Diana is a real hoot. Also, I just want to say that while you think you might just be fondling the plants, the plants are dead and they're fondling. You Just be fondling the plants.

Speaker 1:

Plants are dead.

Speaker 2:

And they're fondling you.

Speaker 1:

Connie, I always hoped that that's what was really happening with plants and fondling. We were fondling each other and I suspected this about rocks. And yes, Diana is a hoot In the best, most brilliant way.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for stopping by oh you bet.

Speaker 1:

And for those of you who don't know, this is Connie the Quantum Worm we met in season two and I'm so glad they're back for season three.

Speaker 2:

And who got a two.

Speaker 3:

Ask for consent, but they'll be. Really, most of them are very down for this right. The Stones also Totally fine. I'll absorb as much as you have like your like. When you feel like it's too much, give some of it back to the earth and then, when you have off, gassed the excess, come back into the honesty of like your heart in the present moment and move from that place. Whatever the hell you need to do to be able to do that is what you can, is one of the most important things you can do, because you know you mentioned the whole like spiritual growth thing at one point while you were speaking, and M Scott Peck as, who is one of the people cited like vociferously by Audrey.

Speaker 3:

Lorde or by Bell Hooks, excuse me. His definition of love is to be an active contributor to your own and another's spiritual growth. Yes, that is love. Yes, growth, yes, that is love. And you cannot be participating in loving rebellion if you aren't also thinking in terms of what does spiritual growth mean?

Speaker 1:

yeah, no notes, diana, no notes the end, bye everyone yeah, yes, I don't actually have anything to say after that because it's, this is, this is it I mean, this is, this is where we are and everything inside of you know, growth and and knowing that it is risky, it is uncomfortable, right? And what you're saying about the nervous system nervous system resilience work is is not just a coming to some, like you know, like always on, like always, on an anti-anxiety medication to the point that you don't have feelings right, just like some level of like sort of neutral, tuned out blissfulness, right like that's.

Speaker 3:

No, it's like we're talking about engagement, being able to be present, to be in relation exactly because this is actually one of the most important, like this actually was a realization I had when I was out in the desert for a couple of months, which is a definition of healing that I find richer and richer the longer I hold it. Healing is increasing the ability to be in relation.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I remember you saying that recently in the living systems space.

Speaker 3:

With yourself, with the world, with humans, with non-human people, like the crow that's hanging out on my roof, with the spiders that oh yeah, I've got a hawk hanging out right up there on the power line like watching through the window here with other, like also with people you don't even like with people you don't even know right, with people like I.

Speaker 1:

Say this all the time it's like warmth, kindness, love to people you'll never meet right, because it matters it does because, it matters it does.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and you. The more you do it, the more capacity you have for it. So whatever sounds impossible now, it sounds impossible now because you don't currently have the capacity for it, but your capacity can change.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, capacity is, is is growable. This is the thing and I and I think that feels really like hard when we're in overwhelm, right, and so that piece of like, whatever we need to do to like tend to ourselves and our nervous system so that we are not just operating in that like simmering over overwhelmed, because then we have no capacity for healthy nose. We have no. We have diminished, greatly diminished capacity then for being in relationship, cause if you have no healthy nose, you're not going to be an adult, you're not in a mature relationship, there's no true consent.

Speaker 3:

If no, can't be a participant. Yeah, right, yeah, thank you. Thank you, dana.

Speaker 1:

I always love talking with you. I love talking with you. I could listen all day and play all day with our hearts and our thoughts, and it's like we are going to. I feel like what I get from you is watching you, like, yes, I love your storytelling and and the way you interpret and think and feel, and what I witnessed from you, too, is also everything that you were just saying, which is like oh right, I just understood this. Like this stuff and this new definition of, of, of growth, of love. I've watched you like dig through the, the like stickiness of existence, and consistently be curious about it and that, and and consistently like like opening up to new things, then being like oh well, god, I thought that. And then like, oh, that did change over time and thank you like for modeling it, not just talking it and saying it, but also like modeling the experiment yeah, something.

Speaker 3:

I feel like the only way to actually know something is to know it through your own physical body. Yes, which I won't say is universally true, because I don't know if anything is universally true. Really, it's above my pay grade to claim right, yeah, same, but I don't like talking about stuff that I don't have a body know with. Yeah, because body know is how it's real.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Otherwise, it's just an idea and maybe it's a fine idea Cute and lovely and amazing yeah. Yeah, but maybe just keep rooting them through our bodies and in relationship in that way and then with each other. Thank you, and thank you for sharing all of this with the, with the cry babiesies here in the jacuzzi.

Speaker 3:

What a great place to hang out. I love jacuzzis. They're so bubbly gorgeous cry babies.

Speaker 1:

If you are hungry for more diana, go to the show notes. She'll also be presenting at the first la astro fest the last weekend of April. Overall, it's aimed at being accessible to all levels of astro enthusiasts and there will be a fun clowny performance by Planets, planets, planets as part of the festivities laastrofestcom.

Speaker 1:

Find Diana there. If this episode swirled something in you, please share it, send it to a friend and if you haven't already, make sure to boop that subscribe button so you don't miss what's coming next. And if you are listening on Apple Podcasts, give us a rating.

Speaker 2:

Five stars.

Speaker 1:

And a written review. Send me the name of your review and I'll add you to the monthly raffle for a free coaching session with me. Subscribing, rating and reviewing are amazing and they help us out immensely. And you, listening, you sharing with your community is the very best thing that we in the Jacuzziverse could hope for. So thank you, crybabies, thank you for your support for so. Thank you, crybabies, thank you for your support. Earworm theme music by the very talented Kat Otteson, sound design and editing magic by the effervescent Rose Blakelock. Keep questioning, keep feeling, keep rebelling in all the ways that matter. And remember the jacuzzi is everywhere. At any moment you could enter into the version of non-normative consciousness that is jacuzzi consciousness. Thank you.